Charming Python #8 (20000053)

Interviews with Creators of Vyper and Stackless Python

David Mertz, Ph.D.
Svengali, Gnosis Software, Inc.
September 2000

What most programmers probably think of when they talk about "Python" is the specific implementation sometimes called "CPython" (because it is implemented in C). However, Python as a language specification has been implemented several times in parallel with the evolution of Guido van Rossum's reference implementation. This column consists of annotated interviews with the creators of two of the non-standard Pythons - Stackless and Vyper. In a subsequent column, similar interviews with the authors of JPython and Python.NET will be presented.

What Is Python?

Python is a freely available, very-high-level, interpreted language developed by Guido van Rossum. It combines a clear syntax with powerful (but optional) object-oriented semantics. Python is available for almost every computer platform you might find yourself working on, and has strong portability between platforms.


To my count, there are four implementations of Python that you can download and run today, and one more implementation whose creation is underway. Each one of these implementations has some very interesting reasons for existing, and these reasons are presented here (and in the followup article) in the words of the implementation developers themselves. Recompiling a compiler or interpreter to a different platform is trivially a different implementation (there might be minor conditional compilations and changes), but the sort of implementation that interests me are ones that transcend platform issues per se. In fact, the Python implementations we'll look at are mostly multi-platform themselves. The idea of an implementation is also different from that of a version. All the implementations I discuss are basically at the same language version (1.5.2) in terms of the language features. Obviously CPython 1.6/2.0/3000 will/does have a partially new underlying implementation, but the other implementations can equally match the features at these language levels.

It is hard to identify a general pattern for what programming languages get re-implemented, how often, for what reason, and by whom. Some popular languages in roughly the same niche as Python--such as Perl, REBOL, and PHP--have only one implementation (compiled to many platforms). TCL is mostly similar to Perl/PHP, but there is a Java-platform version called Jacl. At the other extreme, languages like C, Awk, Cobol, REXX, and Java have each been implemented almost countless times. But those re-implementations have tended to come out of licensing and marketing concerns rather than out of conceptual and abstract issues about implementations. Languages of particular academic interest seem to get re-implemented a lot (especially functional, logical or hyper-pure OOP languages like Smalltalk and Eiffel). Lisp has dozens--if not hundreds--of implementations and descendents.

Unlike the Python implementations we will look at, descendents of Lisp tend to introduce a lot of novel language features along with new implementations. For the most part, the Python implementations implement the same Python language as the main CPython version. And all the current versions are open source cooperative efforts, with the innovations having little to do with market positioning, or even with the license battles that sometimes divide open source projects. Futhermore, the different Python versions are not really forks in a traditional way, but more so concepts that find their expression as Python implementations.

The two implementations not addressed in detail until the followup column are JPython and Python.NET. JPython is a compiler written in Java that compiles Python source code to Java bytecodes. The Python application is ultimately run in a JVM (with the user perhaps having no idea it was written in Python source code rather than Java, nor needing to care). Python.NET is an implementation yet to ship, but that will be--at least in structure--similar to JPython. Python.NET will let Python participate it Microsoft's .NET project, which basically amounts to a non-Java VM that can run programs written in a variety of languages (such as the new C#, Visual Basic, C++, and also Python). Stay tuned for what the developers of those implementations have to say.

In this column, we read what the developers of two theoretically fascinating implementations have to say.


Vyper is an implementation of the Python language written in the functional language Ocaml (3.00). In contrast to other Python implementations, Vyper provides a number of (optional) language extensions: both more powerful scoping rules and some new functional features. Vyper is not being actively developed anymore, but it might be enhanced later (see Resources for obtaining Vyper, including its source code). I asked Vyper's creator John Max Skaller about his motives in creating Vyper:

Skaller: There were two reasons for building Vyper: First, I like Python, especially the simplicity. But I dislike the lack of scoping, and the need to resort to hacks to do anything advanced. So I decided to fix these problems by building a much more advanced programming language with some of the concepts of functional programming languages built in, while retaining compatibility with python.
Skaller: The second reason is performance. I have a major Python program, namely interscript, a literate programming tool, which not only suffers from the lack of good structure in Python (as mentioned above), but also from performance problems.
Mertz: It would be helpful for readers if you could say a word or two about what literate programming is, since that was a motivation for creating Vyper.
Skaller: The idea is that you do not document programs (after the fact), but write documents that contain the programs. Invented by Donald Knuth.
Skaller: Interscript is typesetter and programming language independent, and it can be extended in document by arbitrary executable code, written in Python. That is, one can generate both code and documentation arbitrarily, although a large number of prebuilt constructions are made available for "everyday" needs.
Skaller: But LP will never be accepted as a mainstream technology unless it is FAST. I put a lot of work into making it fast, but in the end, Python isn't fast enough to do what needs to be done: processing strings character by character in an interpreted language just cannot be made fast.
Skaller: So the idea was to build a python compiler, which could at least generate machine binaries that could optimise this kind of code. This is one of the reasons for some of the Vyper extensions, to make optimisation possible.
Skaller: I never did write the compiler: the idea was to write an interpreter, which was used to load all the modules of a program at compile time, and then freeze the resulting dictionaries into executable binaries. Vyper today is the interpreter, but I had a lot of fun extending the language, and then I got a paying job writing a compiler and now have no time to continue the work.
Mertz: A particularly novel feature of Vyper is its implementation in Ocaml. A lot of readers probably assume a compiler/interpreter would be implemented in C (to get close to the metal); or maybe for a defined machine, a compiler could be done in Python itself. Why use Ocaml?
Skaller: Ocaml generates machine code directly. It performs quite well compared with C, faster for some kinds of work. It also comes with a garbage collector. Ocaml is a high level language. Unlike C, C++, Python or most other so-called high level languages.
Skaller: Ocaml is a mixed functional/imperative language. Like Python. Vyper emphasises the functional aspects of Python more strongly than Python does. It corrects glaring design faults, particularly lack of lexical scoping.
Skaller: In practice, there is strong theory behind functional programming, whereas there is NO theory for imperative programming. This means functional programming languages are generally miles better than any imperative ones, from the point of view of development, but often lack the performance of systems closer to the imperative architecture of the underlying hardware.

Interestingly, the next implementation--although coming from a different direction, in some ways supercedes Vyper:

Skaller: The other big killer of the project was Stackless Python. It does something the compiler I am currently working on does, and which Vyper probably could never do: make the implementation of "ultra-lightweight threads" possible. (cooperative multi-tasking driven by an event dispatcher). Vyper is implemented in Ocaml, which uses the machine stack: something that must be avoided, since stack switching (for handling many clients at once from a server), is extremely expensive.

Stackless Python

At first brush, Stackless Python might seem like a minor fork to CPython. In terms of coding, Stackless makes just a few change to the actual Python C code (and redefines "truth"). The concept that Christian Tismer--the creator of Stackless Python--introduces with Stackless is quite profound, however. It is the concept of "continuations" (and a way to program them in Python).

Trying to explain it in the simplest terms, a continuation is a representation, at a particular point in a program, of everything the program is capable of doing subsequently. A continuation is a potential that depends on initial conditions. Rather than loop in a traditional way, it is possible to invoke the same continuation recursively with different initial conditions. One broad claim I have read made is that continuations, in a theoretical sense, are more fundamental and underlay every other control structure. Don't worry if these ideas cause your brain to melt; that is a normal reaction.

Reading Tismer's background article in the Resources is a good start for further understanding. Pursuing his references is a good way to continue from there. But for now, let us talk with Tismer at a more general level:

Mertz: Exactly what is Stackless Python? Is there something a beginner can get her mind around that explains what is different about Stackless?
Tismer: Stackless Python is a Python implementation that does not save state on the C stack. It does have stacks--as many as you want--but these are Python stacks.
Tismer: The C stack cannot be modified in a clean way from a language like C, unless you do it in the expected order. It imposes a big obligation on you: You will come back, exactly here, exactly in the reverse way as you went off.
Tismer: "Normal" programmers do not see this as a restriction in the first place. This is so since they have to learn to push their minds onto stacks from the outset. There is nothing bad about stacks, and usually their imposed execution order is the way to go, but that does not mean that we have to wait for one such stack sequence to complete, before we can run a different one.
Tismer: Programmers realize this when they have to do non-blocking calls and callbacks. Suddenly the stack is in the way, we must use threads, or explicitly store state in objects, or build explicit, switchable stacks, and so on. The aim of Stackless is to deliver the programmer from these problems.
Mertz: The goal of Stackless is to be 100% binary compatible with CPython. Is it?
Tismer: Stackless is 100% binary compatible at the moment. That means: You install Python 1.5.2, you replace python15.dll with mine, and everything still works, including every extension module. It is not a goal, it was a demand, since I didn't want to take care about all the extensions.
Mertz: Stackless Python has been absolutely fascinating to read about for me. Like most earthbound programmers, I have trouble getting my mind wholly around it, but that is part of what makes it so interesting.
Tismer: Well, I'm earthbound, too, and you might imagine how difficult it was to implement such a thing, without any idea what a continuation is and what it should look like in Python. Getting myself into doing something that I wasn't able to think was my big challenge. After it's done, it is easy to think, also to redesign. But of those six months of fulltime work, I guess five were spent goggling into my screen and banging my head onto the keyboard.
Tismer: Continuations are hard to sell. Coroutines and generators, and especially microthreads are easier. All of the above can be implemented without having explicit continuations. But when you have continuations already, you find that the step to these other structures is quite small, and continuations are the way to go. So I'm going to change my marketing strategy and not try any longer to sell the continuations, but their outcome. Continuations will still be there for those who can see the light.
Mertz: There is a joke about American Engineers and French Engineers. The American team brings a prototype to the French team. The French team's response is "Well, It works fine in practice; but how will it hold up in theory?" I think the joke is probably meant to poke fun at a "French" style, but to my own mind I completely identify with the "French" reaction. Bracketing any specific national stereotypes in the joke, it is my identification in it that draws me to Stackless. CPython works in practice, but Stackless works in theory! (In other words, the abstract purity of continuations is more interesting to me personally than is the context switch speedups of microthreads, for example).
Tismer: My feeling is a bit similar. After realizing that CPython can be implemented without the C stack involved, I was sure that it must be implemented this way; everything else looks insane to me. CPython already pays for the overhead of frame objects, but it throws all their freedom away by tying them to the C stack. I felt I had to liberate Python. :-)
Tismer: I started the project in May 1999. Sam Rushing was playing with a hardware coroutine implementation, and a discussion on python-dev began. Such a stack copying hack would never make it into Python, that was clear. But a portable, clean implementation of coroutines would, possibly. Unfortunately, this is impossible. Steve Majewski gave up five years ago, after he realized that he could not solve this problem without completely rewriting Python.
Tismer: That was the challenge. I had to find out. Either it is possible, and I would implement it. Or it is not, and I would prove the impossibility. Not much later, after first thoughts and attempts, Sam told me about call/cc and how powerful it was. At this time, I had no idea in what way they could be more powerful than coroutines, but I believed him and implemented them. Six or seven times, always a complete rewrite, after I understood more.
Tismer: Ultimately I wanted to create threads at blinding speed, but my primary intent was to find out how far I can reach at all.
Mertz: On the practical side, just what performance improvements is Stackless likely to have? How great are these improvements in the current implementation? How much more is possible with tweaking? What specific sorts of applications are most likely to benefit from Stackless?
Tismer: With the current implementation, there is no large advantage for Stackless over the traditional calling scheme. Normal Python starts a recursion to a new interpreter. Stackless unwinds up to a dispatcher and starts an interpreter from there. This is nearly the same. Real improvements are there for implementations of coroutines and threads. They need to be simulated by classes, or to be real threads in Standard Python, while they can be implemented much more directly with Stackless.
Tismer: Much more improvement of the core doesn't seem possible without dramatic changes to the opcode set. But a reimplementation with more built-in support for continuations et al. can improve the speed of these quite a lot.
Tismer: Specific applications which might benefit greatly are possibly like Swarm simulations, or multi-user games with very many actors, performing tiny tasks. One example is the EVE game which is under development, using Stackless Python., see section 8.6 of the FAQ:
Mertz: What do you think about incorporating Stackless into the CPython trunk? Is Stackless just as good as an available branch, or does something get better if it becomes the core version?
Tismer: There are arguments for and against it. Against: As long as I'm sitting on the Stackless implementation, it is mine, and I do not need to discuss the hows and whys. But at the same time, I'm struggling (and don't manage) to keep up with CVS. Better to have other people doing this.
Tismer: For other Python users, who aren't necessarily interested in kinky stuff, there are a few: They won't recognize Stackless at all, just the fact that it happens to be faster, and that the maximum recursion level now is an option and not a hardware limit. And there is another promise for every user: There will be pickleable execution states. That means you can save your program while it is running, send it to a friend and continue running it.
Tismer: Finally, I'm all for it, provided that all my stuff makes it into the core, at the same time. I do not want to see a half-baked solution, as has been proposed several times.
Mertz: Any thoughts on future directions for Stackless? Anything new and different expected down the pipeline? Stackless still suffers from some recursions. Will they vanish?"
Tismer: Pickling support will be partially implemented. This will be working first for microthreads, since they provide the cleanest abstraction at the moment. They are living in a "clean room" where the remaining recursion problem doesn't exist. My final goal is to remove all interpreter recursion from Python. Some parts of Stackless still have recursions, especially all the predefined _xxx__ methods of objects. This is very hard to finalize, since we need to change quite a few things, add new opcodes, unroll certain internal calling sequences and so on.


Home for information on Vyper:

Home for information on Stackless Python:

For Christian Tismer's explanation of continuations and stacklessness, take a look at:

Other articles on Stackless (Cameron Laird):

Ocaml home page:

About The Author

Picture of Author David Mertz writes many apocopetic articles. David may be reached at [email protected]; his life pored over at Suggestions and recommendations on this, past, or future, columns are welcomed.