Re: SB 1438 is law in CA...

From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joehall_at_gmail_dot_com>
Date: Wed Sep 29 2004 - 14:23:13 CDT

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:30:30 -0700, Barbara Simons <> wrote:
> Hmmmm. It seems as if you are saying two different things. When I asked if
> the electronic tally would trump the paper tally, you said it would. But
> you then quote a portion of the law that says that the paper record copy
> shall govern unless.... Isn't that saying that in general the paper
> whatever-it-is will in general trump the electrons?

Oops... you're right... paper trumps rock in the AVVPAT regs in
California. :) (with rock being a computer) Sorry about that.

> As far as my AVVPAT question goes, I couldn't care less if there is an
> independent log/audit trail if it's there just for scholars to go back and
> see who really won the election. The paper is of value only if it can have
> an impact. (I realize you are not defending the definition; you're just
> stating it).

I agree... I think it will have impact when coupled with the mandatory
manual recount provisions of law (in which the AVVPATs would be
recounted... if there are no AVVPATs, I'm not sure what they'd
"recount".) Alan may have additional insight into this.

> Also, according to the definition of a ballot, electronic voting machines
> have eliminated ballots altogether. That seems like a huge policy change.
> Why is no one saying that we no longer have ballots?

Ballots have been replaced by official records. The key here is,
what's considered the official record? I would argue that all aspects
of the audit trail should be conisdered the official record... if
there's a descrepancy or conflict in different parts of the electronic
record, this should be reconciled (I'm not sure *how*).

> Finally, optical scan ballots are ballots. We simply need systems (like
> OVC's proposal) that will mark (Vogue) or print out (Populex) optically
> scan-able ballots that satisfy whatever the requirements are.

100% agreement... I don't see why more jurisdictions are flocking to
these systems (Vogue and Populex). The best alternative seems to be
in-precinct optical scan.

best, Joe

Joseph Lorenzo Hall
UC Berkeley, SIMS PhD Student
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Received on Thu Sep 30 23:17:10 2004

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