Re: [OVC-discuss] Daily Kos vote

From: Edward Cherlin <echerlin_at_gmail_dot_com>
Date: Tue Oct 20 2009 - 21:11:16 CDT

Hi, Bev. I'm not clear why we are still having this argument. Part of
the OVC design is public counting, as we demonstrated last year at
Linux World Expo. Haven't you seen the video?

Anyway, the dKos vote has changed. Apparently it took a bit longer to
bring in the geeks, compared with the non-techy politicals. The
current vote is

229 Open Source
117 All manual

We also have 55 votes for "torches and pitchforks". I will continue reporting.

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 17:18, Bev Harris <bev@blackboxvoting.org> wrote:
> Public hand counts trump open source in the human rights area.

This turns out not to be the case. It is not exclusive either-or. The
two features provide different kinds of benefits, and we should have
both. Although I still favor machine-assisted hand counting, which can
allow far more people to watch at the same time. It could be done live
on the Internet, for example.

> I'm not sure why
> you would "educate" anyone otherwise.

I have a personal peeve against the phrase "not sure" used with the
meaning "haven't a clue". This is not a peeve against you, but just a
complaint about language.

I am quite sure about why we would educate others, particularly including you.

> Brent is right that the ballot marking
> device from OVC produces hand countable ballots. But if they aren't counted in
> public, the only advantage is in certain open records situations; open source
> would at least get us past the proprietary secrets excuse for refusing to
> fulfill public records requests.

Our design includes counting in public and posting results immediately
on the polling place doors and on the Internet, with security
checksums.

> In the area of public understandability without special expertise, public hand
> counts are superior to open source.

Not in California. We need to be able to count all of the races and
ballot measures at the same time. I know of no reliable way to do this
other than scanning combined with publicly visible counters for each
race and measure.

> In the area of public ability to
> authenticate the count as it happens, public hand counts are superior to open
> source. That's not to say that open source is a bad thing, but it certainly
> doesn't trump hand counts from a human rights standpoint.

Again, I don't see why we are still arguing this, since hand counts of
paper without a further audit trail are subject to ballot box
stuffing, mysterious disappearance, and other well-known ills. I have
never heard you address this problem. Why not?

Counting paper that is bar-coded with security checksums in addition
to the voting data, and publishing a checksum of the checksums,
prevents such attacks and makes the system truly auditable.

>> We have a lot of education to do. I put a poll up with the
>> announcement about the Sequoia data. The first time I got to check,
>> Open Source had 10 votes, and hand-counted paper ballots 16. We should
>> get a much larger sample later in the day.
>
> Bev Harris
> Founder - Black Box Voting
> http://www.blackboxvoting.org
>
> * * * * *
>
> Government is the servant of the people, and not the master of them. The
> people, in delegating authority, do not give their public servants the right
> to decide what is good for the people to know and what is not good for them to
> know. We insist on remaining informed so that we may retain control over the
> instruments of government we have created.
>
>
>
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-- 
Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
http://www.earthtreasury.org/
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Received on Sat Oct 31 23:17:03 2009

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