Re: Ms. Tobi's overheated rhetoric

From: Edward Cherlin <echerlin_at_gmail_dot_com>
Date: Thu Nov 08 2007 - 18:40:55 CST

Could you send plain text rather than HTML mail to the list?

On Nov 8, 2007 3:09 PM, Arlene Montemarano <> wrote:
> Mr. Cherlin, I am sure you must understand the difference between
> "wholesale" and "retail" fraud. If not, I suggest you read "Brave New
> Ballot", by Avi Rubin. It is a great read anyway.

Oh, so you would teach your grandmother to suck eggs, would you?

I see that you have no idea what I just said about auditable systems.
I understand the difference between wholesale and retail fraud, and
the difference between security measures and wishful thinking. I don't
see any evidence that you do.

> The logistics and the scale of opportunity with either system make them
> hardly comparable. Stick a ballot box in your sleeve? Stick a memory card
> in your sleeve? Just a small example of what I am saying.

Drop a few ballot boxes into San Francisco Bay? Yes, it happened.

Stick a memory card in your sleeve and have all the checksums come out
wrong, as in the proposed OVC system? Do you have any idea what that
means? Your posts suggest that you don't understand, and that you
don't want to. Please prove me wrong on that assessment.

"It's Not the People Who Vote that Count; It's the People Who Count
the Votes."--attributed to Joseph Stalin

I want the public to have full access to the voting data, and be able
to tell whether they got the real data or not, and be able to count
the vote themselves. None of that can be done in a paper-only system.
We know how to do it in a combined paper and electronic system,
whether you believe us or not. I would be happy to explain, if you are
willing to respond to what I wrote.

> Edward Cherlin wrote:
> On Nov 3, 2007 3:45 AM, Arlene Montemarano <> wrote:
> (This will tick some people off.)
> Bravo! Well said!
> As a 'little person', I appreciate recognition that all the computer jargon
> remains very much Greek to me, and very very intimidating to many of us
> without the capacity to understand what it is doing with my very precious
> vote. That does not make me a moron. I believe it makes me typical of
> voters.
> Nancy does understand it
> Well, you see, that's the problem right there. This turns out not to
> be the case. Nancy, however nice and well-intentioned she may be,
> utterly fails to understand security of any kind. Paper ballots have
> been hacked for as long as they have existed. The relatively recent,
> extremely sorry case of "Landslide" Lyndon Johnson and his tame
> lawyer, Abe Fortas, is but one of a multitude.
> We do not want to complexify voting for the sake of complexity, but we
> do want a system with more than one data path, in this case paper and
> electronic together. As with double-entry bookeeping, you have to have
> two entries for everything in order to have a properly auditable
> system. Bookkeeping and accounting are complex, too complex for most
> of us to follow in detail, but without them, corporate fraud would be
> many times worse than it is. The Enron fraud required collusion
> between Enron and its accountants. Public auditing for elections (that
> is, auditing done *by* the public, not just *in* public) would make
> such collusion far more difficult to get away with.
> They do say, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
> and wants to simplify the process for ALL of us
> down to its necessities. Paper ballot, I mark it myself, I watch people
> count it right there in the room, I can keep track of it all and do not have
> to 'trust' and hope and wonder. Can any of the experts in computer
> technology ever understand how empowering that is?
> It would be such a relief if we could all of us then become experts in
> voting and our own voting process.
> Sorry. Can't happen, won't happen. The universe is not responsive to
> my personal will. I just live here and try to make the best of it.
> "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no
> simpler."--Attributed to Albert Einstein

Edward Cherlin
Earth Treasury: End Poverty at a Profit
Sustainable MBA student
Presidio School of Management
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Received on Fri Nov 30 23:17:12 2007

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