RE: Should candidates challenge elections?

From: <clintcurtis_at_clintcurtis_dot_com>
Date: Wed May 18 2005 - 19:16:36 CDT

If you slice them up, you lose the integrity of the data. Who does the
slicing? Who distributes the sliced up records? How can an interested
party verify the results since they have no other races to show trends
or compare exit polls?. At that stage you are back to asking the public
to blindly "trust The System". How is that better than Deibold? A full
review at most would show a voting trend. It would not identify the
voter.

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [OVC-discuss] Should candidates challenge elections?
> From: Ron Crane <voting@lastland.net>
> Date: Wed, May 18, 2005 7:43 pm
> To: Open Voting Consortium discussion list
> <ovc-discuss@listman.sonic.net>
>
> I'm all for rooting out fraud. But I am also concerned that some
> approaches to doing so may have the effect of disadvantaging unpopular
> candidates or parties. America chose the secret ballot mainly to reduce
> coercion, and we should be careful about compromising that ballot,
> especially for those who already are on the margins. Again, I have no
> problem with making the votes public, as long as they're sliced up to
> remove any association between voters and votes.
>
> -R
>
> On May 18, 2005, at 4:13 PM, clintcurtis@clintcurtis.com wrote:
>
> > Anything less than an open system lends itself to fraud. At would be a
> > rare occasion where the winner would bother to research the vote. Even
> > losing candidates are overwhelmed by attempting a recount. It is more
> > in the purview of statisticians and interest groups.
> >
> >> -------- Original Message --------
> >> Subject: Re: [OVC-discuss] Should candidates challenge elections?
> >> From: Ron Crane <voting@lastland.net>
> >> Date: Tue, May 17, 2005 10:12 pm
> >> To: Open Voting Consortium discussion list
> >> <ovc-discuss@listman.sonic.net>
> >>
> >> Making whole ballots public creates a significant potential for
> >> coercion. Imagine a small town (or small precinct) in which the ballot
> >> lists two races: state rep and sheriff. In this jurisdiction there are
> >> a few homes with "Green Party" signs on their lawns. Their owners
> >> voted
> >> for the Green candidate for state rep and against the current sheriff.
> >> No one else in the jurisdiction voted Green. Now imagine the sheriff's
> >> a bit vindictive.
> >>
> >> Ick.
> >>
> >> Slicing the ballots into strips, each showing an individual race,
> >> would
> >> fix this problem.
> >>
> >> -R
> >>
> >> On May 17, 2005, at 5:54 PM, clintcurtis@clintcurtis.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> Beyond just the random issue, we should insist that the votes be
> >>> publicly available to anyone who wished to see them. That would take
> >>> the stigma out of the recount process and make sure that the votes
> >>> were
> >>> properly tabulated. Property tax records as well as most public
> >>> documents are publicly available to anyone who shows an interest in
> >>> their information. Voting records should definitely be considered
> >>> public documents. Providing a second receipt which could be stored as
> >>> public record should allow such access.
> >>>
> >>> Clint Curtis
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -------- Original Message --------
> >>>> Subject: [OVC-discuss] Should candidates challenge elections?
> >>>> From: Stephanie Frank Singer <sfsinger@campaignscientific.com>
> >>>> Date: Tue, May 17, 2005 7:01 pm
> >>>> To: Open Voting Consortium discussion list
> >>>> <ovc-discuss@listman.sonic.net>
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll put my two cents in for random. And we should make it clear
> >>>> what
> >>>> "random" really means. Otherwise people often mistake "random" for
> >>>> "mostly evenly distributed" which is not a synonym at all!
> >>>>
> >>>> It's a mistake to rely on candidates. Consider Joe Hoeffel, who ran
> >>>> against Specter in PA for Senate in 2004. He would have a lot to
> >>>> gain
> >>>> if fraud were proved, as he would either be a Senator now, or folks
> >>>> would have to recognize that he came from nowhere to be
> >>>> neck-and-neck
> >>>> with a well-established incumbent, in which case he would be
> >>>> considered
> >>>> a candidate to reckon with (which he isn't). But it's not worth
> >>>> risking the "troublemaker," "sore loser" labels that he faces for
> >>>> complaining. It's not realistic to depend on candidates (or anyone
> >>>> else) to work against their own perceptions of their own
> >>>> self-interest.
> >>>>
> >>>> Here's another tack: not only do I, as a PA resident, have an
> >>>> interest
> >>>> in the integrity of PA elections, I have an interest in the
> >>>> integrity
> >>>> of each other state's elections, because of Amendment 14, Section 2
> >>>> of
> >>>> the Constitution. If enough voters were disenfranchised in, say,
> >>>> Texas, then the Consitution guarantees that the Texas delegations to
> >>>> the Electoral College and the US House of Reps should both shrink,
> >>>> which gives my electors and reps more clout!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On May 17, 2005, at 6:40 PM, Ron Crane wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Whatever the process, it has to be transparent, established before
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> elections in which it is applied, and either (a) completely
> >>>>> unbiased
> >>>>> (random) or (b) open to *all* partisan inputs, including those of
> >>>>> any
> >>>>> member of the public. We cannot rely on the candidates to do the
> >>>>> job.
> >>>>> Just off the cuff, I prefer publicly-witnessed random choice, since
> >>>>> it's easy for the public to understand and to verify, and it's not
> >>>>> so
> >>>>> open to the exercise of discretion, and it's not so open to
> >>>>> manipulation via uneven (or unevenly-applied) bureaucratic
> >>>>> obstacles,
> >>>>> such as application fees, etc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -R
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
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> >>
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Received on Tue May 31 23:17:41 2005

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