Re: Brand new concept in audit trails

From: Jim March <jmarch_at_prodigy_dot_net>
Date: Wed May 04 2005 - 17:28:56 CDT

Ron Crane wrote:

> On May 4, 2005, at 2:54 PM, Jim March wrote:
>
>> Ron Crane wrote:
>>
>>> On May 4, 2005, at 2:18 PM, Jim March wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ron Crane wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That's a big problem. It's one thing to reduce voting privacy for
>>>>> everyone, and something else to reduce privacy such that it
>>>>> effects certain parties or candidates more than others. I think
>>>>> this kills the carbon-copy scheme, though it still allows for the
>>>>> publication of precinct totals. The latter is very important,
>>>>> since it permits public verification of the global tally.
>>>>>
>>>>> -R
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, Ron, it does NOT "kill the carbon copy scheme" or it's variants
>>>> because the only thing the duplicate paper is doing is ensuring the
>>>> accuracy and hackproofing of a data type ALREADY declared public
>>>> record in all 50 states.
>>>>
>>>> Let's be clear: in any state, any county, you can ask for and GET
>>>> the votes cast in any precinct you care to name. That's current
>>>> law, current procedure.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can I get the *ballots* cast in each precinct? Or only the precinct
>>> totals? If the former, then it would seem that my objection already
>>> has been overridden.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hmmmmmmmmm.
>>
>> OK. You HAVE raised an issue here...dunno how important it is.
>>
>> Right now, I can ask for "all the votes cast per precinct" and get
>> it. If it's a Diebold county I'll get it regurgitated out of GEMS so
>> I can't *trust* it, but I'll get it. For now let's assume there's no
>> hacking going on.
>>
>> I get a "summary printout" that has lines like:
>>
>> Precinct: 69 / votes for Bush: 70 / votes for Kerry: 60 /
>> votes for (each candidate or ballot measure).
>>
>> What I do NOT get is "this guy who voted for Bush also voted for X
>> and Y and Z". Or at least...damn, you know...Diebold DOES retain
>> that. Dunno if it's public. Hang on, I'm gonna call Bev...
>>
>> OK. She says MOST states will indeed reveal that level of detail
>> ("full ballot images") if you ask for them specifically. A few
>> states consider it confidential. California isn't one of these.
>>
>> So at a minimum we're talking about making this more detailed info
>> more easily available, but it IS mostly available now and political
>> parties and professional campaigns troll that data to learn "how to
>> market themselves". Those are the people you have to watch out for
>> because in a worst case scenario, those are the guys who decide to
>> limit services to you as punishment or in extreme cases harass or
>> file false charges or worse.
>
>
> One question is how long after the election states make this stuff
> available. It's useful for *some* degree of coercion all the time, but
> if it's not available until 6 months after the election, I think the
> issue is rather mitigated. Of course, that wouldn't be as useful for
> ensuring election integrity, either.

They *must* be made available ASAP after the election and by current
law, for the next 22 months after.

We need them ASAP to be able to decide whether or not to do an election
challenge.

OK. Say you ran for Mayor and think you lost by fraud. It'll cost YOU
money to challenge because you have to pay for the hand count by
elections department staff.

Under this "carbon" proposal, you can spot-check precincts yourself or
do an unofficial total hand recount if you have enough volunteers. You
can assess the situation with no financial OR political risk - the
political risk of being seen as a "whiner" (remember the "Sore Loserman"
bumper stickers?) if you order a hand recount and still loose.

>>>> ...Now, if you want to argue for the rights of minor-party-voters
>>>> and get these records sealed nationally, go for it. That's a
>>>> separate issue. I for one will fight you tooth and nail on that
>>>> because there would be NO LIMIT WHATSOEVER to vote-hacking by
>>>> county elections officials.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let's think about that. With our system, they could cast a bunch of
>>> extra votes after the polls close, but not so many as to exceed the
>>> number of voters in the precinct. Carbons wouldn't catch that. They
>>> could manipulate the totals after tabulation, and the carbons would
>>> catch that but you say that ballots are already public record.
>>> What do the carbons add? What I am misunderstanding?
>>
>>
>> Well you're missing one aspect of how vote security really works.
>> It's connected to the volunteer pollworkers. You have four to six or
>> so per precinct, "ordinary people" - in order to "paper stuff", you
>> have to have them all be crooked. Not too likely, esp. not across
>> multiple precincts. At the end of the day these people tally up
>> their precinct's votes and post the numbers. If somebody tries to
>> stuff more paper in back at elections HQ, the numbers won't add up.
>>
>> This can be defeated but with good system design it's damned
>> difficult. Example: proper audit logs will tell you when each step
>> happened, in what order even if they screw around with the PC system
>> clock. Proper login IDs will tell you WHO performed what step so
>> that if a hack is caught, you catch the perps. Compare and contrast
>> with Diebold: editable audit logs, no login security - good
>> pollworker paper procedures carefully compared to machine records
>> might catch electronic hacking (as happened in Volusia County FL in
>> 2000) but the perps won't be. So if you're a perp, go ahead and
>> hack, you'll always get away with it and some hacks won't get noticed.
>
>
> Right. And all those reasons tend to mitigate the problem the carbons
> are intended to address.

Yes, *except* you don't want the non-tech folks to have to trust in a
"tech priesthood" of election observers either.

Long term that nets you a "two caste" system.

This "carbon paper" (more likely the perforated single sheet concept)
makes electronic hacking unbelievably difficult. A step up from the
"very difficult" of the original OVC procedure.

Second, look at my latest comments to the VSPP including a quote from a
Los Angeles memo on electronic voting calling current public confidence
"poisoned":

http://www.equalccw.com/sscomments9.pdf

I've been talking about the posts on the list with Bev all day today.
We have finally got the makings of something she can get enthusiastic
about. Now you may see her as an extreme case but Ron, that lady has
been ALL over the nation digging into election records on site,
examining voting systems, talking to "black hat hackers" about how
they'd do attacks...she is freakin' PARANOID and with very good reason.

You set up something that will satisfy HER and you've really got
something special...

>>>> Ron, you need to know more about how elections and election
>>>> oversight works.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks. I'm trying to learn.
>>>
>>> -R
>>
>>
>>
>> Cool. Well you DID raise an interesting issue here and it's one we
>> need to pay attention to.
>
>
> Thanks. I am trying to push secure elections forward, not to troll or
> to waste time.
>
>> Ultimately I think the security issue will outweigh this.
>
>
> Let's see how the conversation develops. We have to consider how much
> security it realistically adds versus its privacy impact, particularly
> any discriminatory privacy impact. Those little parties and unknown
> candidates are the wellspring of renewal.
>
> -R

Yeah. True. But look on the flipside: if election fraud sets in long
term, there isn't going to be a "wellspring of renewal" from ANY
source. Orwell's "1984" is down that path, or a really nasty civil
war. (Do recall that the "wellspring of renewal" for this nation was
cannons and the Kentucky Longrifle.)

Ron, part of what really scares me is that election-related violence is
on the upswing. Elections HQs of both parties are being raided. Tires
of vans used for get-out-the-vote drives are being slashed. THIS IS
AMERICA, that shit used to be confined to 3rd world countries. Public
perception of election systems is coming unglued.

I can make a very serious case that "excessive security" in elections is
now basically impossible.

Jim
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Received on Tue May 31 23:17:19 2005

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