Re: tabulation

From: Paul Kinzelman <paul_at_kinzelman_dot_com>
Date: Tue Feb 22 2005 - 14:22:33 CST

How about an off-the-shelf embedded x86 system? They're pretty
cheap these days I think.

At 12:17 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:

>This thread raises the critical issue of practicalities, two of which are,
>"How will the systems get built?", and "Who will support them, how, and
>how much will it cost?" Governments will adopt OVC's systems only if we
>answer these questions in an acceptable manner. What won't fly is to say,
>"Oh, you can use any old PC, then put it in a secure enclosure...." or
>"Support is via the OVC website. Just use the "search" page...."
>
>Governments almost always want turn-key systems with on-site, on-call
>support. This isn't merely a requirement of habit, but, in many
>jurisdictions, one of law. How are we going to provide systems that meet
>these requirements?
>
>-Ron
>
>>Hello Paul:
>>
>>About 'the numbers'. Welcome to the wonderful world
>>of Election Reform. Just like herding cats.
>>
>>Thanks, Ed Kennedy
>>
>>--- Paul Kinzelman <paul@kinzelman.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Very interesting proposal, could be a great template
>>>for other states.
>>>But I didn't see any actual *numbers* in there and
>>>bills at least here
>>>apparently have to have actual numbers for costs.
>>>And I agree about
>>>the future savings (in fact, it could be argued we
>>>would have saved over
>>>$200B if bush had properly lost in 2000), but the
>>>state bills here at
>>>least apparently need to have an actual cost when
>>>proposed.
>>>I'll pass this along to the NM group for them to
>>>use.
>>>Thanks!
>>>
>>>At 10:11 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>Paul Kinzelman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>That's all good background/technical info, but
>>>what I was really looking
>>>>>for was
>>>>>practical information.
>>>>>
>>>>>In other words, I talked with a state senator, he
>>>sounded sympathetic,
>>>>>but the first words out of his mouth were "How
>>>much will it cost".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This isn't really an answer to your question Paul,
>>>but if you read this it
>>>>shows how the OVC system will save states money in
>>>the long run:
>>>>
>>>>http://utahcountvotes.org/UVES_concept.pdf
>>>>
>>>>Hopefully someone else will answer your question
>>>more fully.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The OVC web has some info about the voting
>>>machines themselves
>>>>>(can be obsolete PCs), but I was wondering more
>>>about the cost of the
>>>>>tabulating stuff. Can existing paper ballot
>>>tabulating machines be
>>>>>reprogrammed and used?
>>>>>Do you have any sources for machines for purchase?
>>>How much?
>>>>>
>>>>>At 06:11 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hello Paul,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Try
>>>http://gyaku.pair.com/vote/drupal/?q=book/view/85
>>>
>>>>>http://gyaku.pair.com/vote/drupal/?q=book/view/125
>>>>>>
>>>>>>for starters. There is a lot of stuff in the
>>>wiki. IMHO I like Doug
>>>>>>Jones work althougth Keith Copenhagen's work can
>>>give you interesting
>>>>>>insights. There are various issues that occur to
>>>me:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. Wholesale versus retail fraud.
>>>>>>2. What to focus on first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Here's some additional information:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The current and generally most effective process
>>>is that those paper
>>>>>>ballots that are marked or printed out are ran
>>>throug an optical ballot
>>>>>>scanner. The optical scanner is a specialized
>>>optical scanner that has a
>>>>>>row of LED's and photo detectors. The machines
>>>automatically pull the
>>>>>>document through the reader and deliver the
>>>ballots into a sealed box
>>>>>>for recount as needed. The scanner readouts are
>>>translated into votes
>>>>>>and written to a data chip. OVC proposes using a
>>>2-d bar code system but
>>>>>>that's a whole another story. The data chip is
>>>removable and is held in
>>>>>>place mechanically and with a tamper evident
>>>seal. Unless something
>>>>>>unusual goes on, the chip is what gets read into
>>>the tabulation
>>>>>>system. Also, a paper tape is generated at the
>>>beginning and end of the day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Also, a reconciliation process similar to the
>>>daily sweep done between
>>>>>>the cash in a cash register and the paper tape
>>>totals from that
>>>>>>register, has to be done. In this case, the
>>>reconciliation has to occur
>>>>>>between the number of votes recorded on the chip
>>>and physical ballots
>>>>>>sitting in the ballot box. Also, don't forget
>>>reconciling provisional
>>>>>>ballots, spoiled ballots and absentee ballots
>>>turned in at the polling place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Oh yes, all 50 states have a different approach,
>>>and within each state,
>>>>>>each county may vary from the state standard.
>>>Perhaps the scarest
>>>>>>variations occur at the 100's of polling places
>>>in each county. As poll
>>>>>>workers usually get zip training and are
>>>generally exhasted by the time
>>>>>>canvassing starts (a poll worker' s day start at
>>>0600 and can easily go
>>>>>>to 2100 and beyond) they may blow off most of
>>>what they are suppose to
>>>>>>do in canvassing the vote so they can go home.
>>>Some states that use
>>>>>>paper ballots have the ballot taken to the County
>>>Registrar's office and
>>>>>>machine counted there. Some other states or
>>>counties actually count the
>>>>>>ballots by hand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As always, here's our most common comment:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>" We've been working on this project for several
>>>years and we've
>>>>>>discussed a lot of stuff. If you can't find it
>>>here, you might try our
>>>>>>searchable correspondence site
>>>>>>http://gnosis.python-hosting.com/voting-project/
>>>"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>HTH, Ed Kennedy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Paul Kinzelman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Forgive what might be a stupid question, I
>>>didn't see it addressed
>>>>>>>in the FAQs, but have you folks addressed issues
>>>about how
>>>>>>>to tabulate all the paper ballots printed out by
>>>the open source
>>>>>>>machines?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And has anybody contacted the
>>>http://www.invisibleballots.com
>>>>>>>folks? What you're doing I think dovetails quite
>>>well with the
>>>>>>>issues they bring up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-Paul Kinzelman, Peralta, NM
>>>>>>>http://www.kinzelman.com
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>
>>=====
>>--
>>10777 Bendigo Cove
>>San Diego, CA 92126-2510
>>
>>Work for the common good.
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Received on Sun Feb 27 17:17:08 2005

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