Re: I need some help

From: JamBoi <jamboi_at_yahoo_dot_com>
Date: Wed Apr 27 2005 - 11:04:07 CDT

Very interesting! Thanks Alan. Its hard to figure where he's coming
from. IMO he should know better than to make the specious arguments.
Very odd.

JamBoi

--- Alan Dechert <dechert@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> http://euro.ecom.cmu.edu/people/faculty/mshamos/resshort.htm
>
> Try google
>
> "michael shamos" carnegie mellon
>
> Note that he is one of the world's experts on billiards.
>
> Interesting character.
>
> Alan Dechert
>
>
> > Yes, I'd never heard of Shamos or looked at his stuff before. I
> > understand what you are asking for and why, but I was struck by the
> > question of what was his motivation to make such an obviously
> specious
> > argument. Is there a URL I can go to to learn more about this
> person?
> >
> > JamBoi
> >
> > --- Ron Crane <voting@lastland.net> wrote:
> >
> > > My apologies. I shouldn't have assumed that you already were
> familiar
> > >
> > > with his work, or with the rough-draft rebuttal I've previously
> > > posted.
> > > Shamos downplays and/or mocks many concerns about
> > > electronically-based
> > > voting systems, especially DREs, though I know nothing about what
> > > motivates him to do so. In any case, I am writing a more formal
> > > rebuttal, and needed (still need) the requested citation for one
> of
> > > my
> > > assertions.
> > >
> > > -R
> > >
> > > > My point is that this Dr. Shamos looks to be either ignorant
> tool
> > > of
> > > > the DRE Cartel or trying to pull something (the tek info only
> > > serves to
> > > > underline and support that so it looks like you might not have
> > > caught
> > > > my point).
> > > >
> > > > JamBoi
> > > >
> > > > --- Ron Crane <voting@lastland.net> wrote:
> > > >> I am very familiar with realtime systems, having designed and
> > > >> implemented them for some years. My request does not go to the
> > > nature
> > > >>
> > > >> of such systems, nor to any questions about their language of
> > > >> implementation, nor to the silliness of the comparison between
> > > voting
> > > >>
> > > >> systems and flight control systems. My request is merely for a
> > > >> citation
> > > >> for the given proposition.
> > > >>
> > > >> By the way, nothing about Java prevents a vendor from writing
> a
> > > cheat
> > > >>
> > > >> ("Trojan Horse" or "trapdoor") into a system implemented using
> it.
> > > >> Java's security model is concerned with protecting items in
> the
> > > >> environment in which the Java VM runs (e.g. your files) from
> > > >> malicious
> > > >> Java apps downloaded from untrusted sources (e.g. the web). It
> is
> > > not
> > > >>
> > > >> concerned with protecting users of a Java program from code
> that
> > > >> computes its result (e.g. a tabulation of votes) differently
> from
> > > the
> > > >>
> > > >> manner in which it is advertised. The latter is much more
> > > important
> > > >> to
> > > >> voting system security than the former.
> > > >>
> > > >> -Ron
> > > >>
> > > >> On Apr 26, 2005, at 5:33 PM, JamBoi wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> One vital difference with flight control and elections is the
> > > >> nature of
> > > >>> flight control systems. Flight control system are what are
> > > called
> > > >> Real
> > > >>> Time (RT) systems with Real Time Operating Systems (RTOS).
> They
> > > >> must
> > > >>> be absolutely precise re: their timing. They are highly
> > > >> sophisticated
> > > >>> programs done frequently on a very low level of programming.
> > > Their
> > > >>> reliability is a matter of life and death. There are a few
> other
> > > >>> applications like medical, military and manufacturing that
> > > >> typically
> > > >>> are RT, but ELECTION SOFTWARE IS MOST CERTAINLY NOT ONE OF
> THEM.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> There is absolutely no need for nanosecond precision on a
> voting
> > > or
> > > >>> tabulating machine. The software could theoretically be
> written
> > > in
> > > >>> extremely high level languages with little problem unless the
> > > >>> performance becomes so slow that the user interface is
> > > compromised.
> > > >>> That is really the only contraint as far as timing goes, so
> there
> > > >> is
> > > >>> absolutley no need for an RT election system. As a matter of
> > > fact,
> > > >>> because of the difficulty of maintaining such software there
> are
> > > >> many
> > > >>> reasons you would NOT want to design an RT election system!
> > > >>>
> > > >>> This looks like an extremely ignorant argument to me. The
> only
> > > >> good
> > > >>> reason I can think of that someone who was knowledgable might
> > > make
> > > >> it
> > > >>> would be if they wanted to try to premptively disqualify Java
> or
> > > a
> > > >>> Java-like system from the running (since regular run of the
> mill
> > > >> Java
> > > >>> is not certifiable for RT systems although there are RT Java
> > > >> variants
> > > >>> out there). This might be done because Java is designed from
> the
> > > >>> ground up to not allow cracking the system. So if someone
> were
> > > >> wanting
> > > >>> to crack an election system they might not want a Java
> platform
> > > to
> > > >> be
> > > >>> used. Other than that it makes the person making the
> argument
> > > seem
> > > >>> quite out of touch IMO.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> JamBoi
> > > >>>
> > > >>> JamBoi
> > > >>>
> > > >>> "Live humbly, laugh often and love unconditionally" (anon)
> > > >>> http://dailyJam.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > > --- Ron Crane <voting@lastland.net> wrote:
> > > >> At Alan's request, I am writing a paper rebutting Prof.
> Shamos's
> > > >> recent
> > > >> paper that promotes DREs. I've got most of it in hand, but I
> need
> > > >> some
> > > >> help on three issues. Two of them should be easy for someone
> who
> > > >> knows,
> > > >> and one will require some work. I need all these by Thursday
> if
> > > >> possible. Here they are:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1. A few reliable cites for the proposition that
> flight-control
> > > >> software is subject to rigorous specification, implementation,
> > > >> review,
> > > >> and testing procedures.
> > > >>
> > > >> 2. A few reliable cites for the proposition that software used
> for
> > > >> major financial transactions (e.g. a bank's check-clearing
> system)
> > > is
> > > >>
> > > >> subject to tight standards (though probably not as tight as
> (1)).
> > > >>
> > > >> 3. I need someone who is well versed in OVC's system to read
> > > section
> > > >> 2.4 of Shamos's paper
> > > >>
> (http://euro.ecom.cmu.edu/people/faculty/mshamos/paper.htm#_edn1 )
> > > >> and
> > > >> to write a technically solid rebuttal. Reward: naming as a
> > > co-author.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks!
> > > >>
> > > >> -Ron
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> OVC discuss mailing lists
> > > >> Send requests to subscribe or unsubscribe to
> > > >> arthur@openvotingconsortium.org
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > JamBoi
> > > >
> > > > "Live humbly, laugh often and love unconditionally" (anon)
> > > > http://dailyJam.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
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> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > arthur@openvotingconsortium.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > JamBoi
> >
> > "Live humbly, laugh often and love unconditionally" (anon)
> > http://dailyJam.blogspot.com
> >
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>
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>

JamBoi

"Live humbly, laugh often and love unconditionally" (anon)
http://dailyJam.blogspot.com

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Received on Sat Apr 30 23:17:17 2005

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